The OnTrade Show Podcast - Sacha Lord

On this episode of the OnTrade Show Podcast Justin speaks with Sacha Lord — Chair of the Night Time Industries Association (NTIA), co-founder of Parklife and The Warehouse Project, and former Night Time Economy Adviser to Andy Burnham.

Sacha has  a wide-ranging conversation following a major announcement from Andy Burnham on his proposals for VAT reform and business rates relief for the hospitality, leisure and night-time economy sectors. He also discuss what these changes could mean for operators across the UK and why meaningful policy matters more than party politics when it comes to supporting growth.

The pair also explore Manchester’s remarkable transformation and the blueprint that has positioned the city as one of the UK’s leading success stories, examining the role that collaboration between industry and local government in the city has played in driving investment, jobs and cultural growth.

Sacha also talks about the upcoming OnTrade Awards, the challenges and opportunities facing the sector, the future of the night-time economy, and much more.

A must-listen for hospitality operators, suppliers, industry leaders and anyone passionate about the future of the UK’s on-trade sector.

Transcript

SPEAKER_00 0:00

This is the real. Hello and welcome to another On-Trade Show podcast. The show that hopefully brings some inspiration and some engagement from senior people and leading figures across the industry to hopefully move the industry forward in a positive light. On today's show, we have someone pretty special as far as I'm concerned, a shining light for the industry and a really strong voice. The chair of the Nighttime Industries Association, co-founder of Park Life and the Warehouse Project, author of Tales from the Dance Floor, sorry, former Nighttime Economy Advisor to Andy Burnham, the former mayor of Manchester, and a recent recipient of the Industry Champion Award at the On-Trade Awards 2025, and probably my favorite Mancunian. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Sasha Lord. How are we, Sasha?

SPEAKER_01 1:26

Yeah, just so it's a couple of things. The award, actually, I'm looking at it right now. I don't know if you can see it.

SPEAKER_00 1:33

Pride of place. Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_01 1:37

And also Andy is actually still technically the mayor of Greater Manchester at the moment.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Ah, sorry, I that's my mistake. I thought but getting into the by-election, he had he had to actually rescind from that, but he's still officially the mayor at the moment, is he?

SPEAKER_01 1:51

He's still the mayor, and then what happens then, Justin, is if he wins the election on the 18th, so two weeks today, um, then he has to rescind the mayoralship.

SPEAKER_00 2:02

Ah, see, right, okay. That that shows you my political now, Sasha. There you go. That's a an education for me. Um, touching on that, uh, first of all, great to have you on the show. It's uh it's a pleasure to have you on, my friend. Um we'll get straight into it. Obviously, one of the key topics for across the hospitality industry, uh, and I believe a key aspect for for Andy uh and his his campaigns is obviously VAT across the industry, which is a huge topic, and there's obviously a campaign running at the moment across the industry where VAT is the problem. Um you obviously work with them and know Andy very well. Um what do you see as the kind of key focus for that and your own opinions across the industry, Sasha?

SPEAKER_01 2:52

Well, look, I mean, uh everybody watching this knows how badly the industry is suffering at the moment, and Andy is very, very aware of that. And you know, he's not one of these nodding dog politicians who, you know, just sits in a room and he says, Yeah, yeah, yeah, I agree. Let me see what I can do, and then that's it, you never hear from him again. He does follow through with his actions, and I and I'll give you an example, Justin. Um, when he first appointed me, he asked me to spend six months just going around Greater Manchester finding out what was working, what wasn't working. And after the six months, I I went to him and said, Look, how can we call ourselves 24-hour party people when our trams stop at 11 o'clock? Does it, you know, it's not right, it's a bit weird. And Andy thought at the time I was talking about clubbers and people going out, and I I wasn't, I was thinking more people that work within our industry that finish at one, two, three, four in the morning who'd be penalised because they'd have to pay for an expensive taxi to get home. Anyway, he brought the night buses back and he didn't just bring them back, he capped them at two pounds, and that has made a huge difference. So he listens and he acts. Now, the conversations we've had have been about business rates and VAT. And you'll remember Rachel Reeves promising the industry that she was going to reform business rates. And actually, when she announced it, the average pub's gone up 76%, the average hotel's gone up 115%. And as we're recording this now, and you and I spoke five minutes before we started, there's a press release that's that's going out, and you know, it'll be out by the time people watch this. Andy's calling for a further 20% reduction across the board on business rates for hospitality. But he's gone even further and he's set a threshold, which means that the vast majority of cafes, family road independent restaurants, places like that will not pay any business rates at all. And that is going to be a huge, huge game changer. On the VAT at the NTIA conference at the start of February, he committed to the whole room and all the press were there, and he wrote about it and supported it, and so did Angela Rayner, um, that he would support bringing VAT back down in line with the rest of Europe. And that is why you've got celebrity chefs like Tom Carriage coming out and actively saying we need this guy as the next PM.

SPEAKER_00 5:13

100%. I couldn't agree more. I mean, we we've spoken obviously quite a few times um around the the challenges and looked at a number of different avenues. And as you know, for me, this isn't about the politics, it's not about the the colour of the tie. Um, and I think it's something that Andy mentioned recently in a BBC interview himself, is about removing the politics aspect aspect from it and actually dealing with the policy and getting the policy right to actually help the economy move forward and do the right thing. Is is would is that how you feel as well?

SPEAKER_01 5:50

You've hit the nail on the head, and everybody's saying to me, why is Greater Manchester working? You know, I it's not me bragging. You know, everyone knows we're having a great time at the moment. You know, this year alone, we've had MTV Awards, we've had the Brit Awards, first time relocated outside of London, we've had the Mobile Awards, uh which sadly the founders just passed away. But um, you know, we're we are having a great time, and the answer to it is the leader, not just Andy, he'll be the first to admit it's a team. Andy and the leaders of our ten boroughs put the place before party, place before politics. And he works in Greater Manchester with the Tories, with the Lib Dems, and they all want what's right for this city region. And I think he would bring that new politics into Westminster. You know, the days of Labour saying, well, you know, that colour over there is black, and and because they've said that, then Tories got to go, no, it's white, and it's just silly, isn't it? And how many times do we create watching question time or things like that when you know they're given lines, and actually they probably don't believe what they're saying, but they're told they have to say that. So I I'm I'm you know, I'm refreshed. We're going to see a new type of politics enter Westminster.

SPEAKER_00 7:07

It's certainly something I'm excited about. As I say, I I'm I have no political allegiances either way. I I just believe very, very strongly that wrong is wrong, and and people need to look at the policies that are in place. I mean, we've spoken about the success of Manchester, and I'll touch on it with you in a moment, about the blueprint that's been very, very successful, but and where that is in stark contrast to a lot of cities across the UK that are struggling, Glasgow, my hometown, being one of them. Um, well, there's been a number of challenges. But for me, it's it's got to be about doing the right thing, and rather than just paying lip service, which there seems to be a lot of. Um, you touched on Rachel Reeves and and Keir Starmer, and it's been similar with the SNP government in Scotland, where it's sound bite politics, is what it seems like, is like, yeah, we'll we'll put a a great quote that'll sound good for 10 seconds that we can put out across the media or social media, but the actual reality is completely different to what they act on, and that can't continue. You've got obviously um in a couple of the shows that we spoke to, and in a venue in particular on rates in Scotland, Sasha, were wonderbar, and we spoke to Kevin and the team, um, and the increase in rates is beyond eye watering. Well, they went up an increase of 481% of an increase on a venue that has spent nearly two million pounds investing in its staff, investing in the building, investing in its area, and it's almost like success has been penalized um across the industry. Is that kind of getting replicated down south is uh across the board? Is that to that extent?

SPEAKER_01 9:00

Or no, uh absolutely. You know, I was at the Labour Party manifesto launch in July 24. It happened to be in Manchester, and I went along, I was invited to it, and um she stood there, Rachel Reason told the room that she was the Chancellor of Business and Growth. It couldn't be further from the truth. You know, the first thing she did was at her very first budget, she increased national insurance, which, you know, completely blindsided the sector, cost us hundreds of thousands of millions of pounds. And you know, since that we've lost 120,000 jobs in hospitality. And Justin, when you dig down into the minutiae of that, the vast majority of those jobs are for 18 to 24 year olds. So the days of your temporary job working in a pub or a sandwich shop to get you through college or union, they've gone now. Um, so it's it's devastating. And you know, I I speak to many, many operators. I was in Parliament giving evidence on Tuesday um at a round table and you know, speaking to people, they're all saying the same thing. We are absolutely busy. Places look busy, we're not making any money, we're making a loss. And to hear that people that are doing well in hospitality at the moment are the people that are breaking even. It's ridiculous. You know, how many people do you and I know running a business? They've got all the worries in the world, you pay the staff first, you pay all the bills, and then there's no money left at the end of the day to pay themselves a wage. And that, you know, that is that is not few and far between.

SPEAKER_00 10:33

It it can't be right, and it and it can't be allowed to continue. Uh, it really can't. And I I'm astonished, to be honest with you, uh, that it's been allowed to continue for this long. We've I've been a big critic of Rachel Reeves and it uh how things come across, and I'm a big critic of people in positions of power that make decisions affecting the masses or affecting business or affecting people across the board that have no experience or understanding of how those decisions are actually impacting real people because I I I think they're very, very disconnected in a lot of things. But I've as I say I've been quite vocal in relation to that. Touching back on to the the kind of blueprint and obviously the success that Manchester had had, Sasha. We obviously sat at a round table up in Scotland with a number of kind of senior people across the industry where you were discussing the kind of success and the blueprint that yourself and Andy and the the kind of wider community in Manchester had done. Um we obviously put that to uh counterparts of Glasgow City Council uh at the time, um an authority that's in two billion debt and struggling and all over the place, as I'm sure many across the industry will confirm. Um, and they their exact words at the time on the now outgoing head of Glasgow City Council um said, Oh, we we don't need support or advice from anybody else, we're doing quite well as we are. Um, but I found that astonishing given the kind of fundamental success that Manchester had had using hospitality as a cornerstone of growing the economy for the city, which has been hugely successful. Could you go over some of the things that you've done or that that were implemented to be able to help do that?

SPEAKER_01 12:25

No, of course, but you know, just on that, how arrogant is it to say that? You know, how how arrogant we don't need help, you know. 100%. Greater Manchester is, as I said, is probably the most vibrant city region in the UK. But on a constant daily basis, you know, I I'm colleagues who are reaching out to other cities and you know looking at what's going on in Paris or Berlin or Barcelona. What can you do to improve your own city region? So, you know, I I I personally don't think Glasgow is in a in a great place to say, well, we don't really need help. My my sister-in-law is at Glasgow University and she talks to me about nightlife in Glasgow, and I think it can be vastly improved. Um, but certainly with the blueprint, you know, transport was absolutely key for me, and that was been sorted out. The other thing, as well, is you know, any mums or dads watching this will totally agree with me that safety has to come first. Safety on a night out is absolutely imperative. So, what can we do to create a nice, safe, diverse offering on a night out? And the other thing that's really important, Justin, is when you talk about a night out, most people think about 18 to 24 year olds. Well, yeah, that that is great. You know, they're going to nightclub and stuff, but why can't pensioners have a good night out? You know, all these like different ages, and so that's what we did in Greater Manchester. We brought the whole thing together and and it works.

SPEAKER_00 13:51

Yeah, I mean, we we constantly talk about as a title, and and I'm quite a big advocate of hospitalities and experience, it's an entertainments industry across the board, no matter what level you're at, whether it's a coffee shop, a nightclub, or a festival, um, you're there to entertain people and give people a reason to go out and spend their money. And if that experience part is is disrupted by things that's not really within their control, like you said, poor transport, getting home, the cost of being able to do that, or blocks being put in place, you know, after certain aspects, you had you've got WhatsApp groups of people trying to arrange nights out, things like that. And if there's more blocks to being able to go out, and there's not enough incentives to be able to have that experience, it's going to break down, it's going to be a problem. So seeing that Manchester had used the kind of transport aspect as an infrastructure, use the music and use the vibrancy of that kind of, if you like, the entertainment industry is hugely inspiring for us. And something I was really disappointed to see Susan Aitken, uh, who's now decided um she's going to be stepping down as the head of Glasgow City Council, um turning away and and and not engaging with, because, like you said, any positive aspect or any growth for anything at all surely should start the collaboration and understanding what else is available, what's on the marketplace for anybody. Um, but as I say, the inspiration that I've seen from Manchester has been hugely positive.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

If I'm wrong, tell me here. But this is just my observation, and I'm I may have mixed this up with another city, but it seemed to me that they were actively trying to push nighttime economy out of the city centre, you know, road closures and and things like that. It was like almost an aggressive act against the nighttime economy. And what she didn't understand is we are the fifth biggest sector in the whole of the UK, you know, we're the third largest employer. And sadly, that hasn't been recognised. And I just hope that the next person that becomes leader understands the importance of the nighttime economy. Because when you when you're looking at the high streets, which are dying away, and we all know the reasons why, uh, you know, the likes of Amazon and stuff like that, it's going to be our sector that revives those high streets. And you know, I I I um live in South Manchester, not far too far from a place called Ultringham. And in Ultringham, when the church first opened, it completely annihilated Oltringham. It was the most boarded up high street in the whole of the UK. And then a guy came along and reopened Ultringham Market into an indoor food outlook, a really good high-quality offering. All of a sudden, it became very, very busy. And on the back of that, lo and behold, all these smaller boutique bistros and cafes started to open up around. And in 2017, it won the best high street in the UK. And Glasgow should come. In fact, Glasgow have been down to see it. A guy called many years ago, a guy called Jerry Braden came down with a team. So that's it. Um with Jeff Ellis, actually, who who's originally from Stockport but uh is a promoter up in Scotland. And um, they came down to have lots of.

SPEAKER_00 17:08

He's an honorary glassweging now, Jeff.

SPEAKER_01 17:11

He's a good guy, Jeff. I like Jeff. Lots of time for him. Um, but yeah, they've been down to see it, and you know, it it needs something like that needs replicating in Glasgow.

SPEAKER_00 17:19

Yeah, no, I totally agree. I mean, I as I say I had a really close friend. I spent a lot of time in Manchester and kind of surrounding areas because my one of my closest friends lived there, and I remember Hale very well, um, and kind of Hale Bar and Grill and stuff like that, and like you said, the kind of boutique venues, uh, Suburban was another venue that was really unique and niche, but it had a vibrant community, all based around people going out for dinner, people having a going out for a drink, or cocktails, or even the coffee shops and stuff like that. And you're right 100%, that certainly from our experience in Glasgow, and certainly a lot of feedback from across the hospitality industry in Glasgow and Scotland as a wider avenue, there is a real split between how those local authorities are viewing the hospitality industry. It's almost like a cash cow, or there was a time just after COVID when I think the industry got a feeling that it was the Scottish Government as well as local authorities were very anti-alcohol, where anything that involved alcohol or anything like it, or people getting together was something that was a a bad word or it couldn't be done. But yeah, things like LEZ restrictions, they're now you've got the head of Glasgow, the Treasurer, Glasgow City Council saying that, or putting a statement out saying that they are going to have to implement a congestion zone in Scotland in Glasgow because they need the revenue to be able to pay for council services. And it's like, how much more can you take from businesses? How much more pressure and challenges can you put on them before, as you referred to earlier on, you start losing staff before it becomes an industry that is not appealing for anybody to go into. And for us, you're a hundred percent correct, and many people like Michael Bergson and other people across the industry have spoken about it. The hospitality industry is a cornerstone of employment across the UK. It's where people learn life skills, it's not just a job, it's where people learn to you know explore their personalities to understand who they are, team building, working under pressure and working in different environments and meeting different people. It gives you a number of different life skills, not just pulling a pint or serving a plate. But um, as I say, it it's hugely frustrating for the industry and it's hugely frustrating, and it must be hugely frustrating for yourself to sit and watch people at Rachel Reeves making the statements they're making with no progress, and it seems to be going back the way as a set of forward.

SPEAKER_01 19:58

Well, I mean, uh I am just you know hoping, and this won't come as a surprise to you. I'm hoping that Burnham becomes the next PM because you know, if he does, I know we all see change. I know we will. Um, you know, even this morning he was talking to me about VAT, so it's coming. I know it's coming. Um so yeah, we we just have to hope, hope for the best.

SPEAKER_00 20:19

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 20:19

You know, he's passionate about our sector, he understands our sector, he enjoys our sector, and you know, his business rates announcement today, fantastic, will help many. And then on top of that, only this morning he was talking to me about VAT. So I know it's coming, and this is what the whole sector has been asking for, but it's fallen on deaf ears. And you know, there are there are people out there, Justin, you would have seen them as like, well, you know, it's we're not gonna write a checkout. Why would the government write a checkout for hospitality? We're not asking for any money. We want fairness, what they have in Europe, and my argument has always been look, 10% of something is far better than 20% of nothing, which is 100%. And on a shot business, you're missing out on your P A Y E, you're missing out on your NI, you're missing out on your business rates, you're missing out on corporation type if it's making a profit, you know, all these things you're missing out on. So it is short-sighted to ignore this sector. We are powerful.

SPEAKER_00 21:16

100%. I I couldn't agree with you more. Um, as I say, it's for me, uh, this is where I again I don't want to go into too much, but this is where the the frustration lies. I don't understand just from a straightforward economics point of view, how the Chancellor of the government of the UK can look at increasing everything NI taxation and crippling an industry to the point of breaking point. How that's beneficial to growing the economy.

SPEAKER_01 21:49

We are now the most taxed sector in the UK. You know, we we like look at banking and construction, everything. We are the most taxed. And she is bleeding as dry. She really is. And you know, I I just can't wait for it to come.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Well, I I'll echo that a hundred percent. And a more positive vein, and a more positive vein. Your thoughts, yeah. I mean, a lot of people um look up to yourself um from a point of view, you're a you're a very straight-talking individual, very positive about the industry, which is absolutely phenomenal. For for you, what do you see as other than the VAT and other than the rates aspect, which are a must now? It's just it has to change, it has to be done. Other than that, how what do you see as the the future of the industry? What do you see as helping the industry move forward out with those two key areas, Sasha?

SPEAKER_01 22:48

Well, I would also just to add to that as a third point, I'd like to see a reversal of the NI increase as well. Um, but uh you know what, Justin, we've got the cost of living crisis here. Things are very, very tough for everybody. You know, my mates that would have three pints on a Friday are now cutting down to maybe one or two pints, which the NHS will be really pleased about. But we have to have fun at the end of the week, don't we? You know, we everyone grafts so hard, you've got to have that bit of fun. Um, so you know, I think it's gonna be a tough two years, but I think once we're out of that, things are going to become rosy again. You know, a new PM can't change things overnight. It's gonna take time, but I'm confident we, you know, we're gonna start to see light at the end of the tunnel.

SPEAKER_00 23:34

I I I really hope so. I really hope so, because as I say, it's been challenging um across the board. I mean, from even from a selfish point of view, as a title, as a magazine, as a as a platform, without the hospitality industry, we don't exist. Um without the hospitality industry and the the diversity of venues, and we spoke to Caitlin McAllister, the the MD of the Ministry of Sound about this in a previous show. Everything feeds out from each other. It's not a singular industry, you know. You mentioned earlier on retail reliant on the hospitality industry because people aren't going out, they're not buying clothes as much, they're not buying things, you know, perfume and aftershaves as much because they're not going out as much. There's a real knock-on effect to the transport taxis, beauticians, and I think that gets lost sight of. So, as I say, I know a lot of people, yourself included, are very, very passionate about trying to move the industry forward, about trying to do it in a positive light. And personally, as a title, I want to thank you for the the efforts that you have um and the conversations you're having, as well as Andy and the kind of wider teams, because without that voice and without having that visibility, it it makes it even harder. Uh, and as much as I'm no Laura Kunzberg or Sky News, um, we really, really appreciate you taking the time um to chat with myself and for the support you've shown us.

SPEAKER_01 25:06

Can I just end on a positive, positive note? Yeah, 100%, please do. Well, no, this industry, this sector, is the most enjoyable industry when things are good. It really is, and there's no barrier in this industry whatsoever. And you know, I'm an example of that. I left school with two U's and an E. Um, we could make a joke about the E, but I'd rather not.

SPEAKER_00 25:29

Um I wasn't going to see anything.

SPEAKER_01 25:32

I didn't go to college or you know, anything at all like that. But if you said to 15-year-old me who had anxiety at school, was a bit of a geek, you know, had anxiety, all my mates knew they were going to Oxford, Cambridge, St Andrews, wherever. Um, look, you you're gonna co-found the biggest nightclub in the world, where's Pudgy? You're gonna co-found the biggest Metropolitan Festival in the UK, part life, you're gonna write a Sunday Times top 10 book, you're gonna end up being the first night's economy revisor for breakfast. I thought that's met that is impossible, and I pinch myself every single day. But there's no barrier in this sector, you know. Once you're in this industry and any young people watching this, you can go all the way. There is nothing at all to stop you.

SPEAKER_00 26:15

I I totally agree, and I that it kind of resonates with myself as I say, I'm much the same as yourself, obviously, not to the same influential level, but I'm just a boy for Glasgow. I played football, stopped, and then had a number of different careers and found what I feel is uh my place in the industry, and it's something I'm really, really passionate about. And over the last five years, I sometimes get imposter syndrome, Sasha. Um I think we talked about that before, but sitting with if you'd asked me if we were sitting with politicians and having conversations speaking to yourself or sitting in meetings with really senior business leaders that have built businesses, multi-million pound businesses from scratch, I would have laughed at you five years ago and said, no, that's not my bag, that's not what I'm doing. But seeing the passion that people have in the industry for doing more and doing better and pushing forward has to be supported. And that's why another reason it's so so important that these things have to change to give the industry a fair playing field.

SPEAKER_01 27:19

And good luck with you award ceremony again at the end of this year. Sorry I can't be with you, but actually, just just on that, so obviously I came up, thoroughly enjoyed it last year. Brilliant night, highly recommended to anyone watching this. But when my wife saw the pictures a few weeks later that you posted of the girls that were attending, I think she's quite pleased they can't make it this year, to be honest. Um, highly, highly recommend it to anybody. It's such a good night.

SPEAKER_00 27:46

It was uh we appreciate that. We've just put all the finalists out for this year's with a lot of venues like ministry and stuff like that involved. In some places, maybe close to your own heart in Manchester. There was China White and Manchester's in there, Gotham Hotel, stuff like that. So it's it's a good spread, and we wish all the the finalists the very, very best of luck. But yes, we'll we'll not let the cat out of the bag too much, but you you are going to be involved in a capacity this year, but uh we'll we'll keep that a secret for for now. Um but listen, Sasha, as always, a massive pleasure to speak to you. Thank you for taking the time and please keep the fight going. Thank you very, very much, ladies and gentlemen. Mr. Sasha Lord, thank you. Well, that's another on-trade show podcast. We hope that you've learned something from that. We hope you've you can take some inspiration from Sasha's words, and we hope we can move the industry forward uh and change happens. Until the next time. See you soon. This is the rhythm of them.